Re: /6 main seal? new list member It's Recess Time carb monologue BMW Boxer Ign Stuck! R11GS - fixed and back on the road Exhaust, was new list member Mirrors"Buzz"& Tires K Spline Lube How-To on K-Tech Page!! '85 R80RT engine removal Re: '85 R80RT engine removal R bike Speedo Fixes RE: BMW Boxer Ign Stuck! carb leaks
From: SEAMAS%BRUCE@BIOMED.MED.YALE.EDU
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:52:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: /6 main seal?
- -As a question just for curiosity's sake, I noticed something interesting
- -although I'm sure not relevant but want to know why though...the drippings
- -and the fluid that was on the engine 'shelf' were clear basically, but the goo
- -that came out the box was opaque and coffee/cream brown.
The oil on the "shelf" was probably from the engine via the main seal. The
goo was from the transmission. This really points to the problem being
the rear main seal rather than a transmission seal, IMO. Also, gear oil
has a distinct smell due to the sulfer in it so you could smell the oil on
the shelf and compare it to gear and engine oil.
- -leo_horishny@pol.com
S/eamas /O Scalaidhe 1971 R75/5
------------------------------
From: dye@stg.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:46:34 -0500
Subject: new list member
I was plesantly suprised to find this list only by mention in the
massive IBMWR email list, whose traffic I dont have time to sort
through!
In any event, I'm glad to find a low-volume list that concerns
my interest in the bikes, the technical side. The heated handgrip stuff
was starting to get my goat.
I recently had my RH factory pipe disintigrate, and went to
the local BMW specialists (not a dealership place, but a shop
in downtown chicago that specializes in the bikes). There I found
a used 2 into 1 glasspack for $100. It went on fine, but now I
am having second thoughts. The seat of the pants feel tells me
that midrange is a bit off, but it really lights up at high RPM's.
This is contrary to my automotive header pipe learning (ie. tri-y's help
torque but restrice high RPM power). Are we talking a different animal?
Would I be better off getting a pair of mufflers for my still-good
factory H-pipe?
- --Ken
'76 R90/6, Chicago IL
------------------------------
From: afkjv@VMS.ACAD2.ALASKA.EDU
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:36:39 -0800
Subject: It's Recess Time
'Tis that time of the year when Dilia & I lock the doors, hop on the
scooters & look at Alaska in the rearview mirror. In preparation for our
annual 3-month ride to No Place In Particular in a few days, I'll be
unsubscribing tomorrow evening.
A perfect summer of riding & friendships to each of you. If I don't see
you on the road or at the Top O' the Rockies Rally, I'll see you right
here at the end of August.
Adios.
Kit Vercella
------------------------------
From: robert frasier <o9790174@wsunix.wsu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:55:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: carb monologue
All right, my treatise on carburetors. Sorry it took so long to get out, but
I have been sort of busy defending my dissertation.
First, some basic theory, and terminology. All carburetors work on what
is known as "the Bernoulli Principle". In english, the Bernoulli principle
states that as the velocity of an ideal gas increases, the pressure drops.
Within a certain range of velocity and pressure, the change in pressure is
pretty much linear with velocity-if the velocity doubles, the pressure
halves. However, this linear relationship only holds within a certain
range (more on this, and why it is important, later). Carburators work
because as air is pulled into the carb throat (AKA the "venturi"), it has to
accelerate from rest, to some speed. How fast depends upon the air
flow demanded by the engine speed and the throttle butterfly setting.
According to Bernoulli, this air flowing through the throat of the carb will
be at a pressure less than atmospheric pressure, and related to the
velocity (and hence to how much air is being fed into the engine).
So now, we have air flowing through the carb throat, at some pressure
less than atmospheric. If a small port is drilled into the carb throat in this
low pressure region, there will be a pressure difference between the
throat side (what I will call the inside) of the port, and the side that is
exposed to the atmosphere. If a reservoir of gasoline (aka the float
bowl) is between the inside of the port, and the atmosphere, the
pressure difference will pull gasoline through the port, into the air stream.
At this point, the "port" gets the name of a "jet" in the concept of a carb.
The more air that the engine pulls through the carb throat, the greater
the pressure drop across the jet, and the more fuel that gets pulled in.
As noted above, within a range of airflow in the throat, and fuel flow in
the jet, the ratio of fuel to air that flows will stay constant. And if the jet
is the right size, that ratio will be what the engine wants for best
performance. I should mention that I am describing a simple carb with a
fixed throat and jet size. Like on most older cars. The CV carbs on a
BMW work on the same principles, but they vary the throat and jet size
in order to extend the range over which the carb can accurately meter
fuel.
This is where things start to get more complicated. As I noted, a
venturi/jet arrangement can only meter fuel accurately over a certain
range of flow rates and pressures. As flow rates increase, either the
venturi or the jet, or both, will begin to "choke"-that is they reach a point
where the flow rate will not increase, no matter how hard the engine tries
to pull air through. At the other extreme, when the velocity of the air in
the venturi is very low-like at idle or during startup, the pressure drop
across the jet becomes vanishingly small. It is this extreme that
concerns us with respect to starting, idle and low-speed throttle
response.
At idle, the pressure drop in a 32 mm venturi is so small that essentially
no fuel will be pulled through the main jets. But the pressure difference
across the throttle butterfly (which is almost completely closed) can be as
high as 25+ mm Hg. Carb designers take advantage of this situation by
placing an extra jet (the "idle jet" natch.) just downstream of the throttle
butterfly. Because of the very high pressure difference at idle, and the
very small amount of fuel required, this jet is tiny. When the throttle is
open any significant amount, the amount of fuel that flows through this
jet is small, and for all intents and purposes, constant. So it's effect on
the midrange and up mixture is easily compensated for.
During startup, the amount of air flowing through the carb is smaller still.
At least till the engine begins to run on it's own. But when it is being
turned by the starter or the kicker, rpm is in the sub-100 range
sometimes. So the pressure difference across the jets is again in the
insignificant range. Plus, if the engine is cold, it wants the mixture extra-
rich to compensate for the fact that a lot of the fuel that does get mixed
with air in the carb precipitates out on the cold walls of the intake port.
Now we come to "chokes" and "enricheners". Bing carbs, and most bike
carbs, use enrichener circuits. All this really is, is another port or jet from
the float bowl to just downstream of the throttle butterfly. Except that the
fuel flow to this jet is regulated by a valve that is built into the carb body.
At startup, when the lever is in the full on position, the valve is wide
open, and the fuel supply to the cold start jet is more or less unlimited.
In this condition, the amount of fuel that flows through the cold start jet is
regulated just like the idle jet is. When the throttle is closed, the
pressure drop across the jet is high, and lots of fuel flows, resulting in a
very rich mixture, just perfect for ignition of a cold motor. If the throttle
butterfly is opened, the pressure difference is less, and less fuel flows.
This is why R bikes like no throttle at all until the engine catches.
However, the mixture quickly gets too rich, and opening the throttle a tad
will make things better. Just like the idle jet, this cold start jet is small
enough that even when the circuit is wide open, the amount of fuel that
can flow is small enough that at large throttle openings, it has little
impact on the mixture. This is why you can ride off with the starting
circuit on full, and the bike will run pretty well-until you close the throttle
for the first time, and the mixture gets so rich the engine stalls. The
valve that controls fuel supply to the cold start jet allows the rider to cut
the fuel available through that jet down from full during startup, to none
or almost none once the engine is warm. In most cases, at the
intermediate setting, fuel to the cold start jet is cut to the point where the
engine will still idle when warm, although very poorly since it is way too
rich.
True "chokes" are different. But very aptly named. A choke is simply a
plate that can be maneuvered so that it completely (or very nearly)
blocks off the carburetor throat at it's entrance ("choking" the carb, just
like a killer to a victim in a bad movie). That means that the main, idle,
intermediate, etc., jets are all downstream of the choke plate. Then,
when the engine tries to pull air through the carb, it can't. The only place
that anything at all can come in to the carb venturi is through the various
jets. Since there is little or no air coming in, this results in an extremely
rich mixture. The effect is maximized if the throttle butterfly (which is
downstream of the big main jets and the choke plate) is wide open, not
impeding things in any way. If the throttle butterfly is completely closed,
the engine does not really know that the choke is there-all the engine
"sees" is a closed throttle, so there is little enrichening effect. The
engine will pull as much fuel as possible through the idle jet, but that is
so small it won't have much effect. So a carb with a choke behaves in
exactly the opposite manner as one with an enrichener. During the
cranking phase, it is best to have the throttle pegged at WFO so that the
most fuel gets pulled in, resulting in a nice rich mixture. But as soon as
the motor starts, you want to close the throttle to cut down the effect of
the choke. Even that is not enough, and most chokes are designed so
that as soon as there is any significant airflow, they automatically open
part way. Otherwise the engine would flood. Even "manual" chokes
have this feature most of the time.
So. I hope this is all at least somewhat clear. "Enricheners" are an
extra, controllable jet that provides more fuel to richen the low speed
mixture. The amount of fuel they provide is at a maximum when the
throttle is closed, and the airflow is at a minimum. As the throttle is
opened, the overall mixture effect goes down. Chokes on the other
hand, cut off the supply of air to the carb without changing the jetting in
any way. But by their action, they increase the pressure difference
across all the jets at low engine speeds, enrichening the mixture. This
effect is at a maximum at high engine speeds and throttle openings.
Which is why different carb types behave different ways during startup.
I have intentionally left this description somewhat general. I will be glad
to try and answer any questions that the text raises.
Sincerely
Bob Frasier
------------------------------
From: makind@host.igs.net (David L. Makin)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:11:43 -0400
Subject: BMW Boxer Ign Stuck!
A club member's '81 R65 is stuck on full ignition advance. The "tuna can"
sending unit is full of rust, so presumably the mechanical advance in the
back of the can is seized up. There's no information in Haynes, Clymer, or
the BMW shop manual on what we are going to find inside, and no parts
listed in the fiche either.
Have any Presidents ventured inside this unit? Are the advance springs the
same as used before electronic ignition? TIA....
BTW this is an R65"RT" -- a factory - fitted RT fairing is hung on the poor
thing. Is this the R65"T" listed in the fiche? The bike was imported to
Canada by a armed forces officer returning from Europe.
David L. Makin Kanata, Ontario
------------------------------
From: Richard Bernecker <rbernie@erols.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 22:28:40 -0400
Subject: R11GS - fixed and back on the road
I just finished a rather interesting evening.
I hadn't ridden my GS for a couple of weeks, due to medical considerations.
(Long story, and "Bounce" Pink tells me you really don't wanna hear it...)
Anyway, I was planning to finally ride it to work tomorrow, so this evening
I went out to the garage to start it and check things out. (0500 tomorrow
morning is no time to find out that the bike has a problem....)
And, it wouldn't start. It would turn over just fine, it just wouldn't
start. Now, we've had a warm week, the bike *had* been sitting for a
couple of weeks, and the GS's tank was quite low; I smell the exhaust and
I'm not smelling lots of raw gas. I figured (long-shot, but easy) that *maybe*
I evap'ed the volitile fractions of the remaining gas. So, I took the gas
can up to the local Exxon and got a couple of gallons of hi-test. Filled
the tank, and it still wouldn't start. Starter was turning rapidly, and all
normal systems looked "go" - just no ignition.
Then I noticed that I wasn't hearing the "espresso machine" - the fuel pump.
Sure enough - no whir when the ignition was turned on, as it normally should
have. Now, the RID was lit and the starter turned over - that should rule
out the kill switch or sidestand cutout switch. Pull out the Service Booklet
(ha!) and ID'ed the the fuel pump fuse - it checked fine. The DVM tells me I
have good voltage to the fuse itself.
So, back to the house to get my *new* (not yet grease-smudged) R11 wiring
diagram. Confimed that the RID and starter engagement symptoms isolated the
problem to the fuel pump fuse, relay, or pump itself. (Hell, I didn't know
the fuel pump *had* a relay until now...)
>From the fuse, fuel pump actuating power goes to the relay, and from the
relay the switched current goes to the pump itself. Now, there's only one
problem with the BMW wiring diagram - it provides NO corrolation between
the little symbols on the paper and the actual components on the bike. The
Service Booklet (ha!) which comes with the bike provides a nice fuse
identification chart - but no corollary relay chart. The fusebox has seven
relays, a cat code plug, and the turn-signal flasher. So which relay is the
fuel pump relay? I can't use the ol' "troubleshoot by substitution" method,
since I have no known good relays in hand....
Now, in the fusebox, four of the relays are identical items - same exact
part number. I figure (hope) that the fuel pump relay is one of these.
(It was actually an "educated" guess, since the other three relays were
much larger - I figured them to be the Motronic relay, ABS relay, etc.)
So, I go thru the wiring diagram and find a horn relay; that should be a
relay I can live without until I can get to a dealer at lunchtime, and
it should be a relay which is easy to find in the fusebox. I start pulling
the four relays, one at a time and then replacing after removal and test,
until I find the one that, when removed, kills the horn and nothing else.
That's the second one from the left, BTW.
Now, I take that relay (which is now my "known good", since the horn worked
quite well), mark it for reference, and substitute it for the other three,
one at a time. When I place this good relay in the socket for the third
relay from the left, PRESTO!!! I get fuel pump. The bike now starts. I place
the suspect relay from that socket into the horn socket, and the horn no
longer works. The horn relay *is* engaging (I can hear the click), but is
not passing current. So, the conclusion is that the wiring from the fuel pump
fuse to the fuel pump socket is fine - the relay itself is bad.
And I now have a bike I can ride to work tomorrow. I pass this along to the
group to provide some info regarding the "unmarked" relays in the R11 fuse
box. The first relay from the left appears to kill the parking lights, head-
lamp, and horn when the starter button is depressed - the wiring diagram
calls it the "unloader relay". The second relay from the left is the horn
relay itself. The third relay is the fuel pump relay. The fourth relay, I
didn't get to test (since I'd alrady solved my problem...) From the wiring
diagram, I'd presume that it is the ABS warning relay (not the ABS relay
itself).
Hopefully, this'll help someone down the road. And I feel as if I accomplished
something this evening.... :-)
========================================================
Richard "VI,CE" Bernecker Manassas, VA, USoA
rbernie@erols.com SOD #1
"What's the use of having luck if you don't use it?"
========================================================
------------------------------
From: Jim Buchanan <c22jrb@koptsv01.delcoelect.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:17:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Exhaust, was new list member
dye@stg.com:
>
[H pipe removed, replaced with a 2-1 header]
> am having second thoughts. The seat of the pants feel tells me
> that midrange is a bit off, but it really lights up at high RPM's.
In my experience (more with cars than bikes), most headers that take all of
the pipes and combine them into one collector cut midrange power. I suspect
that this is due to the length of the tubes, but I'm going to try and not
let my typing get ahead of my knowledge here. :-)
Straight pipes w/o an H pipe seem even worse, in my *very* limited
experience with them.
I have noticed that this effect is worse without a muffler (as in a
megaphone, such as the "stinger" used so often on VW's).
I suspect, but don't know, that this is what the reverse cone megaphones
are designed to prevent.
Anyone know for sure?
BTW, I've use tri-y headers on in-line 4's. Great midrange, and the top end
was still better than the cast iron lumps managed.
=================== http://www.holli.com/~jbuchana =======================
------------------------------
From: "H.A.\"Fuzz\"Parten" <76147.1201@compuserve.com>
Date: 07 Jun 96 10:38:38 EDT
Subject: Mirrors"Buzz"& Tires
Hi,
Thanks to all that answered on my questions on Mirror Buzz and tires
for The R100RT's.
I tried the buckshot in the mirror---didn't work,maybe on handlebar mounted
mirrors but no good on the fairing mounts.
Used Silicone sealer(actually product called Lexan,clearer than silicone,
found in same section of hdwre store) ----This helped a lot,cut the vibes
about 50%.
Tires: Went with a Dunlop to replace the Me55 Metzler that wore out in
5000 miles.It easy to find and cheaper than Metzler.
I plan on putting Metzler ME88 on the other bike,when it needs it.I can
then compare the two brands.
Thanks again all!
Fuzz Parten 2-'95 R100RT's Castle Rock CO
------------------------------
From: walt@diusys.cms.udel.edu (Walt Dabell)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 11:33:23 EDT
Subject: K Spline Lube How-To on K-Tech Page!!
*************Hear Ye! ***** Hear Ye!**************
It has finally happend! We now have a fine "Transmission Input
Shaft/Clutch Spline Lube" article on the k-tech page!
See http://www.ibmwr.org/
My warmest thanks to my hero of the week Bryan Lally for the
fine contribution. Thanks Bryan!
Other recent contributions:
Replacing alternator drive rubbers on k100 (Don Eilenberger) and
K 75 (Ted Verrill)
Mechanical Voltage Regulators - How They Work - Brian Curry
How To Install a Headlight Relay - Brian Curry
I'd also like to take this time to thank all of the contributors
to this page. I have had a lot of comments on how usefull this
information is, and has been. And a special thanks to Ben Zaborowsky,
who's idea a few years ago sparked this whole effort. And thanks
to all of the users who have been giving the positive feedback.
You're the ones we are doing this for. We hope you find it usefull.
WOW! Kind of gives you a warm fuzzy feeling all over... :-)
Ride Safe!
Walt Dabell
IBMWR Web Cheeze
K-Whiner-MC#17
------------------------------
From: PR100RT@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:01:19 -0400
Subject: '85 R80RT engine removal
First of all many thanks to all of you who responded re: my query about
rocker arm end play!! The input was very useful.
I am going to be helping a friend of mine with his '85 R80 RT that is
needing a rear main oil seal replacement. After considering the pros, cons
and costs (special tools, etc.) of doing the complete job ourselves, we have
decided to strip the engine down to the clutch and flywheel, remove the block
from the frame, take the block to the dealer and have them pull the clutch
and flywheel and replace and set the seal. We have lubed the splines before;
so the only uncharted waters here are the actual removal of the engine from
the frame. I have several questions about this.
1.) Can the engine be pulled with the cylinders, timing chain cover, and oil
pan on?
2.) Any suggestions about lifting points on the engine to get it out of the
frame?
3.) Any thing else to worry about?
Many thanks for any and all responses.
Pete Roussos
------------------------------
From: prose@ccmpo-b.draper.com
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:06:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: '85 R80RT engine removal
Text item: Body.822
Pete,
1.) Can the engine be pulled with the cylinders, timing chain cover, and oil
pan on?
Absolutely!!!
2.) Any suggestions about lifting points on the engine to get it out of the
frame?
Pick the engine up by the two jugs and rotate it so that the front
cover is facing straight down. Remove the engine out of the left side
of the frame. Piece-o-cake!
Many thanks for any and all responses.
Pete Roussos
Good Luck, Phactory Phil aka Phil Rose prose@draper.com
Text item: Header.822
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------------------------------
From: Pete Serrino <serrinop@ehsct7.envmed.rochester.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:10:27 -0400
Subject: R bike Speedo Fixes
First off thanks to everyone who offered suggestions on how to
repair my broken odometer. Most suggested methods to "knurl" or somehow
shrink the metal on the offending zamac gear. This didn't work for me. The
gear kept breaking free.
What did work is the cut keyways in the shaft and the gear and use a
piece of music wire as a key. The shaft was cut with a Dremel and abrasive
cut-off wheel from the gear location out to the closest end. The gear keyway
was "milled" with a #60 (1mm) drill by simply holding the ID against the
spinning drill. A small piece of wire is slipped through the end plate (the
reason for cutting the keyway to the end) after everything is assembled.
Since it was hardly a precision fit I used a dab of epoxy to make sure
everything stays in place.
The bike is only 2k miles from 100K. I didn't want to lose this one.
Cheers,
Pete Serrino
'83 R100RT
------------------------------
From: William Jerome Fay <elvie@ip.portal.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 96 11:34:10 PDT
Subject: RE: BMW Boxer Ign Stuck!
>A club member's '81 R65 is stuck on full ignition advance. The "tuna can"
>sending unit is full of rust, so presumably the mechanical advance in the
>back of the can is seized up. There's no information in Haynes, Clymer, or
>the BMW shop manual on what we are going to find inside, and no parts
>listed in the fiche either.
>
>Have any Presidents ventured inside this unit? Are the advance springs the
>same as used before electronic ignition? TIA....
>
>David L. Makin Kanata, Ontario
Mark the 'tuna can' ignition sending unit / mounting location so you have a
close ballpark ignition timing starting point before removing it from the
bike.
Remove the crimped on little inspection plate on the side of the unit by
prying it off with very fine screwdrivers. This will allow you access to
disconnect the two centrifigal advance springs using a very fine needle nose,
or a curved sewing needle. Next disassemble the unit from the front of the
bike side i.e. NOT the camshaft facing side. (I tried the camshaft side, and
failed to drive the hardened metal pin out even with a propane blowtorch and
a 20 lb. sledge hammer). Where the wires come out of the cannister, there is
a black plastic fitting that has to slide off the front. Lift out the little
black plastic 'rivit' before trying to slide it at all. Be careful &
thoughtful in all your work because BMW doesn't offer replacement parts for
this unit, you have to buy a new one. Be methodical, lay the removed parts
out on paper in order, down side down (or what ever system you like so you
know how to get it all back together). You can disassemble all the way down
to removing the centrifigal advance arms from the base plate. I used WD-40,
Q-tips, and bits of paper toweling to clean the centrifigal advance unit
parts. There is a (probably sealed) shaft bearing below the base plate,
that's why I din't 'blast' clean it with carb or brake cleaner. With a
Q-tip, I put a *minimal* touch of ignition grease on all the piviot points.
When putting the cannister back together, thread dental floss through the
advance spring (outer) ends. If you use two different lengths of dental
floss you can identify which is for which spring after threading both out the
inspection hole. If you lay this out right (i.e. around the shaft) you'll
know which spring gets pulled around which outer post.Double check your work
before disconnecting the floss. When you put the crimped inspection cover
back on, use a little silicone or some other nonpermanent glue or the little
cover will fall off and out the drain/vent on the engine front cover. If
this should happen, you'll have to use a beer can clipping and a large worm
drive hose clamp to seal the inspection hole.
Install, and check ignition timing.
If you've read this far, then feel confident you have the stamina to tackle
this task and have the bike back on the road in about 2hrs.
BTW does anybody out there know who makes these ISUs (tuna cans)? I would
like to talk to them about trying to implement a vacuum ignition advance by
rotating the sensor plate.
- -------------------------------------
Name: William Jerome Fay
E-mail: elvie@mail.ip.portal.com (William Jerome Fay)
- -------------------------------------
------------------------------
From: Nathan Luther <nluther@lamar.ColoState.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 13:30:43 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: carb leaks
I have this nagging problem with the carbs on my '76 R90/6; they leak gas
from the escape hatch on the float bowl. This seems to be caused by
sticking float needles. I always (nearly) shut off both petcocks and
they don't leak. Since I discovered this problem I've cleaned
the carbs thoroughly, last summer, and rebuilt them this past month,
including new float needles. I figured I had solved the problem and
nearly fainted when I noticed seepage this morning. I rapped on the
bodies with a screwdriver handle which solved this morning's incident.
This, as far as problems go, is minor yet highly irritating; it's like
the eczema of bike ownership:
1. Has anyone else experienced, and solved, this little hassle?
2. Why would this happen to both carbs at once unfailingly (never does
only one needle stick)?
3. Need I enlist the services of a priest to exorcise the demons from my
float chambers?
4. Or is this the cross I have to bear for owning a 20 year old machine;
a somewhat less-than-endearing quirk?
Thanks in advance, n.
------------------------------
End of bmw-tech-digest V1 #26
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